Posted by
HvySlpr on Sunday, July 27, 2008 2:47:45 AM
H: Should there be any laws? Your logic says "no," unequivocally. A law is not a legislation of morality, they are rules made because of thousands of years of trial and error.
"That (6 abortions) crosses a threshold for me.” That is completely illogical based on your past arguments. Your logic dictates zero fallacy, moral or legal, with abortion.
"But my truth would be she is letting nature take its course." I love this argument. Do you ever take pain killers? Go to the doctor? Does [your wife] plan on taking an epidural when she goes into labor one day? Will you tell your mother or father not to get an angioplasty or stints or a by-pass if they need it, hopefully much later in life, if at all? Are you PLAYING GOD [J]!! God granted us inquisitive minds to solve our everyday problems. This (medical advances leading to longer lives) is a gift, not an abomination.
"This is a reality for some people. Can you change that?" If it wasn't for people trying to change that reality (disgusting racism), you would be pickin' cotton in the south, or worse. You couldn't have been married. {Your Wife} would have been used like cattle for breeding. Your children, if you were allowed to have any, would be ripped away from you at birth, possibly sold to the highest bidder. Slavery was and is a disgusting practice. The long, bloody battle to end slavery in the U.S. was largely fought by white northerners with zero slaves, and no ties to slavery. I am glad that the people arguing against their cause with moral relativity, and arguments about how slavery did not directly affect them, failed.
Why should I police a site?
What does it matter?
Who does it hurt to just let it go?
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent; I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent; I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out; I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent; I wasn’t a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
Friedrich Gustav Emil Martin Niemöller (January 14, 1892 – March 6, 1984)
J: This is true [Gods grant of inquisitive minds], but my point you missed here is in each of these situations we make a choice to use these technologies or not. [My wife] does not have to have an epidural if she does not want, my parents do not have to have by-pass or angioplasty, etc., if they do not want to. These a re not mandated. We choose if we want these things or not. In the instance of racism and slavery; I think this is separate. Slavery was a social issue, abortion is a personal issue, as I see it. Yes, as citizens of the world aw all should do something to protect the civil liberties of people. And in these instances, abortion would fall into the civil liberty category. In my defense, I am standing up for the civil liberties of women and couple’s to make their own decisions about this topic. Ultimately, it’s about choices, good or bad, right or wrong.
H: Rights come from God, and/or are enumerated in the Constitution. Where is there a right to an abortion? Either you think it was granted by the Constitution or granted by God. If God, what church do you attend? If the Constitution, wherein?
"...a choice to use these technologies or not." Yes, but they are not playing God when they, personally, decide to use them, or breaking any laws either way. When it comes to abortion, or euthanasia, the person making the choice is not ultimately the one affected by it. My point was to illustrate the hypocrisy and fallacy of the "playing God" or "letting nature take it's course" argument. By your logic, slavery shouldn't have been outlawed. It was based on personal choice. The choice of the slave-holders to hold people captive, physically forcing them to work, and the choice of the slave not to fight back. Why get the government involved? If people used you line of logic you would be a slave. Abortion is more of a social issue for those smart enough to realize life begins at conception. Slaves could have fought back but chose, largely, the consequences of not fighting back. Unborn babies cannot. Your constant reference to "choices," their moral infallibility, and the non-shalantness that you talk about them baffles me. I am all for personal choice, if it has no effect on others' freedoms, but unlawful choices can, do, and should be punished.
J: The person making the choice is directly affected. If I chose euthanasia, my very existence is affected. If a woman chooses abortion, she is directly affected, but also these early stages of life. By my logic slavery would be outlawed because force or threat of force was used to exploit a race of people. In the abortion scenario, force or threat of force is not used. Until they start lining up women and forcing them to have abortions, it is not a social issue. As for rights, Roevs. Wade says abortion is legal but may be restricted by the states to varying degrees. And according to Webster, rights are a legal guarantee. Since it is legal, though to an extent, women do have the right. Moreover, because a right it is not specifically mentioned in the Constitution does not mean it does not exist. You know this. The Constitution does not detail every little thing. In my mind an abortion is not the same as criminal acts. By your logic, I take, that you should also play a sizeable part in the upbringing and caring of children whom would have other wise been aborted. Is this true?
H: Euthanasia is not suicide. It is one taking another's life, usually proclaimed as compassion. If it is on yourself, it isn't euthanasia.
Force or threat of force is used against the baby.
Roe v. Wade? Seriously, you went to Roe v. Wade?
Courts do not grant rights. It was a faulty ruling based on political pressure, not law. The Fifth Amendment’s guarantee of freedom from illegal search and seizure was used by activist liberal judges. Apparently they felt that the mothers' right to property superseded the babies' right to life. The same type of activist judges ruled in favor of Jim Crowe laws. A person as property is not new but has always been anti-Constitutional in the U.S. and has always been abhorrent.
There are adoption agencies that exist purely to stop, or limit, abortion. Like I said before, except in the cases of rape and Immaculate Conception, pregnancy is 100% preventable.
The law says "buckle your seat-belt." If the seat belt causes you injury in an accident you can't sue the state of Illinois. Why would the state be responsible for your child simply because killing it was illegal. You can't go to the government and tell them that because you haven't killed [your wife], when you could have if it wasn't illegal, that they have to pay for all of her birthday gifts from now on.
“J:Euthanasia is not suicide. It is one taking another's life, usually proclaimed as compassion. If it is on yourself, it isn't euthanasia.” Got that, maybe didn't articulate my idea well. I meant have someone kill me.
“Pregnancy is only 100% preventable if abstinence is used.” Must we deprive ourselves of our sexuality and sexual identities to avoid this issue? In a way, a child(ren) is/are property in the sense that until "legal age" you as a parent are responsible for the actions of your child. Watch the judge shows, anytime a child is involved the parent pays the consequences in instances of liability.
"Why would the state be responsible for your child simply because killing it was illegal." Why wouldn't it? You proposed the state/feds make abortion criminal, who then is responsible for unwanted children? The state/feds would have to take some responsibility if abortions were made illegal. Right? Or is the child supposed to do for him or herself from birth?
END OF PART 5